Your Life After Tech
After decades of building a tech career, author Debbie Levitt is one of many people with questions, anxieties, and doubts. As a mentor and coach, the employed and unemployed often ask her, “What happened to tech jobs?” and “What will I do next?”
In each episode, we'll meet someone who has left tech, is leaving tech, is adding non-tech work to a tech career, or is reinventing themselves with entrepreneurial adventures. You don't have to leave tech to join our multiverse!
You are the phoenix. It's never too early to plan what you'll do when you're done with tech… or tech is done with you... or you want to add non-tech work to a tech career.
Your Life After Tech is a podcast from the LifeAfterTech.info multiverse. Check out our "Life After Tech" book (with 18 actionable exercises), Discord community, coaching, and more. Use the "Phoenix Flight Plan" to get grounded, plan, rise, and soar.
Catch the video version of the podcast on YouTube https://lat.link/yt-podcast
Your Life After Tech
Ep 004: John Braine - Staying in Tech, Building Up Art and Music
John Braine is a UX Designer combining his passion for technology with his love for art and music. John shares his journey from self-taught web design in the 90s to shifting into UX design. John shares his practical techniques for integrating artistic pursuits into daily life, emphasizing the importance of small habits, consistent progress, and holding yourself accountable.
John is staying in tech, and increasingly adding art and music as both hobbies and money-makers. Find him on Instagram as @trontsephore
Welcome to the your Life After Tech podcast. This is Episode 4. I'm Debbie Levitt. Don't forget to check out our lifeaftertech. info multiverse, including our book, discord, community coaching and more, because you might be done with tech, tech might be done with you, or you're thinking about adding non-tech work to your tech career. Today's guest is John Braine, j-o-h-n-b-r-a-i-n-e, and you can find him on Instagram as Trontsephore T-R-O-N-T-S-E-P-H-O-R-E. John is staying in tech and is currently employed as a UX designer, but he's also been ramping up his artistic and musical side. These are not new areas for him, but he's been getting back into them more and specifically carving out time in his week for these endeavors. It's a lot to balance, but you've got to make time for your passions. Let's get to know John.
John:Yeah, so it's funny. I was just thinking today that it's actually a comfortable circle, because when I first got my computer in the 90s it was actually to start making music, start making electronic music. It's the only reason I got a computer. I didn't think I'd be clever enough to use a computer before that and then soon then I got like obsessed with the web, taught myself web design and I wasn't working in any kind of tech or office job at the time. Um, and yeah, it was pretty much all self-taught, did a bit of contracting for a while as a web designer. Then quite early on I did a basic web design course, got some jobs as a web designer and that was, you know, coding, coding and design. And then and I traditionally did not go to college after school for many reasons but but eventually did a master's in multimedia in Trinity College Dublin and then straight after that I kind of had a lot of good offers because I had a lot of experience. I had about 10 years actual experience. And then I had the piece of paper also to say that I could do it, and the training also to say that they could do it, and the training. And I also did yes, and follow up web, the kind of UX design courses online with Joan Otholey, who I consider one of the best teachers out there. And then you know, I've been working as a UX designer for god. I'd lose count now, but you know well, on top of the web design stuff, i've've been working as a UX designer God, nearly 15 years now. So, yeah, I'm in my current role a couple of years.
John:So, yeah, I've been deep in tech for a long time and then I decided that I've yeah, I've kind of in the early days I had a couple of releases out of the electronic music. Then I had children and marriage and all that stuff. And in the last few years I've got back to music and art and I've yeah, I've had a, had a new release out in vinyl and a few months ago I have my first electronic music live show coming up at the start of november, which I've been putting a lot of work in to to try and get ready for that. And I have just I like in the last few years I was wondering I really wanted to get back to visual art and I was wondering if and I have just I like in the last few years I was wondering. I really wanted to get back to visual art and I was wondering if I'd have to go back to college to do that.
John:But I actually just kind of stumbled across my medium recently. I started doing a mixture of watercolor, collage and ink work on top of that and I just I just I just found, found my medium and I got very quickly. I got offered a slot at a market, got what you call them. You know kind of basically one of those markets where you can sell a flea market, and started to sell a good few pieces of art. So I kind of, yeah, and now I kind of pretty much spend all my time making music and art, but I'm still holding down the you know, the tech, the tech job during the day.
Debbie:Yeah, and I wanted to talk more about that because you are certainly, for the foreseeable future, staying in tech. You've got a ux design job you've been at for a few years. But you caught my eye on linkedin when you commented under one of my posts and you said that your Instagram bio or something like that said and I'm going to get this wrong because it's from memory, but it was something like you know, dj, artist and maker and messer and raver and designer, and you know, one of these pays the bills and the rest matter, and so I thought maybe you could talk to us a little bit about kind of getting more into those entrepreneurial things when you're still staying in tech.
John:Yeah, well, yeah, I sometimes think that might get me in trouble, saying one pays the bills and the rest matter, like the job does matter as well. When I'm in my job, I'm serious about my work and I try to do my best at my role. But it's really, I think some people, especially early in their career, their career is almost their persona. You see some people their Twitter. Maybe they'd be talking about design all day, whereas to me that's it's something I was, I'm still I'm quite passionate about design and ux and good ux, um, but to me it's it's not where kind of my real passion lies, and that really is with, with art and music and djing and producing and raving and, yeah, going out dancing with friends, and that's that's kind of where I, yeah, my, my passion lies, and I I also find, um, like I really, when I'm either making music or making art, I find it like extremely meditative. So there's all that kind of passionate side of it and it's not.
John:You mentioned the word entrepreneurial, so I'm not sure. Well, I'd love to get to the stage where I make a living purely out of my art and I am starting to sell, sell more and, yeah, music wise, I'm starting to get more gigs and sell more music and that kind of thing. But I'm not. I think it might always be more of a side hustle, slash hobby, um, but we'll see, we'll see how it goes.
John:I mean, if the art that's like it's, I think it's extremely hard to make a living as a musician, particularly, I think, electronic musician. These days, um, every every second person's a dj and and a producer, and you know there's a lot of visual artists there as well. But I, you know, I think, yeah, I definitely would like to keep going with that. Still, like, try, try to sell more, try to put more of a focus, like I do have an etsy store, but I haven't, I haven't really promoted it too much. I'm about to add a lot more content. Um, I have, like several artworks currently with a printer getting scanned and printed, so I will start pushing that a bit more in the future.
Debbie:Okay, so how do you find the time with work and kids, and it sounds like so much passion is in the art and the music. How do you find the time to pursue that?
John:I think a really big thing is that I don't have a TV anymore. I hear so many people say to me God, I don't know how you find the time to do all the art and music and everything else. And then a minute later they'll be saying have you seen season 4 of whatever? And I do watch the odd thing on the computer, but I got separated a year and a half ago and I did not bring my big separated a year and a half ago and I did not bring my big tv with me and I'm I'm glad of that and I I used to be a big movie fan and I, like I, you know I'll watch the odd thing, but generally I finish work every day, have my dinner and then it's music and art all night. And then, you know, and I do, I do cook for the kids once, uh once during the week and I see the kids a lot at the weekend. I bring my daughter horse riding every saturday and sunday. So that does take up a lot of uh good time that I enjoy, but that does take up a lot of time.
John:In some ways I actually have more time in the in the during the week, because there's kind of this routine of you know, work, dinner, art music, whereas you know, the weekends it is a lot of time with children and socialize with friends. So, yeah, it's mostly like five days a week. I'm kind of yeah either, um, you know, working, I guess I don't even. I just got a bit to say working from dawn to dusk, but I don't really the art music just doesn't feel like working to me, it just feels like pleasure. So so, yeah, really just every afternoon and anywhere I can fit in. And in fact, because, um, because I have a live gig coming up and I've actually never played live before and I'm still trying to figure out how to do that at the moment I'm bringing my, my music everywhere. I mean, like I literally had a mini studio in the car when I brought my daughter horse riding at the weekend. So, yeah, I'm just squeezing it in everywhere that I can.
Debbie:Amazing, and one thing that I thought of is I wonder how much time you put into things like social media, because I found that many years ago, when I finally deleted Facebook, I felt like I got 60 hours back in my life each week. It probably wasn't exactly 60, but can I ask if um kind of uh, leaving some of the social media sites or being involved there less has added to this time you have?
John:uh, not really. That's still a bit of a time suck for me. I, um, that's something I struggle with to juggle. Um, I had like and I've read, I've read all the books like. Um, I can't remember. There is like. I've read various books about like, giving up screens and getting away from social, and I think it's. Cal newport has a really good one and after I can't remember what it's. I think it's called deep work or something. Uh, oh, digital minimalism is the name of his book, and after I read that I ditched instagram, facebook, tiktok for a whole month and didn't miss it, but then it crept back in.
John:And but I find it's it's kind of hard to get the balance right because, especially with with music and art, you, you, you want to be on social media to share your work, um, and like, whether it's like music or art, it's like. That's kind of, in some ways, that's where I network with other musicians and other artists a lot, so it's very hard. And then I kind of hate the fact that a lot of my messages come from instagram messages. So I occasionally delete instagram from my phone and then I completely miss messages. So it's hard trying to find the balance for that, and I did. There was this really good app called Freedom and it completely blocked everything for certain periods of the day, but I found an accidental loophole. So then I was back to my own self-control, which just doesn't work. I'm actually thinking of getting one of those uh jars with a lock on it and a timer to put my phone in. So uh, so yeah, that is.
John:That is a bit a bit of a battle and I'm constantly, you know, sometimes I will try and just turn my phone off for for a couple of hours, stick it in the shed. But with with music, I find um with the music and art. Actually, once I once I get into that and I get into that kind of um I can never remember what it's called, but you know, when you kind of get into that deep focus mode where you just kind of get lost in time and I forget everything else. So I get that with um, flow, kind of a flow state. I get that with music, um, when I'm making music, and I get that when I'm when I'm making my art. So once, once I get started the, I forget about the phone, I forget about the social media for hours. But um, but yeah, no, it is.
Debbie:It is definitely still a battle at times, time suck and a distraction that I'm, yeah, constantly battling yeah and that flow state is one of the main hallmarks, in my opinion, of that passion that you know you're doing. What is your passion and, for some people, your reason for being.
Debbie:When you feel like I have no sense of time, I have no sense of food, I'm just immersed in this thing and so it would be really interesting if you can end up kind of turning that into more of a business. But I guess at the same time do you ever worry that if it were more commercial or you were able to sell more art or music, would that change your relationship to it?
John:Yeah, well, there's always that fear that if it became a? As I was actually talking to an interesting artist recently, I bumped into him on the street. He's a street artist and I was. I was talking to him and I was saying, oh, I, you know, I'd love to be a full-time artist. And uh, he, he's a very straightforward guy and he kind of put me in his place and he says you know, it's a job just like other, any other, and I have to, like, you know, looks like great fun out here painting on the street, but I have to work really, really, really hard I. But I got the impression he still was passionate about it and he still enjoyed it. And there is that fear.
John:When I think you turn a passion into a job, then it becomes, um, you know, then it just becomes another job. But I don't know, I still, you know, I'd be willing to take that risk to you know. And then there's that old cliche you know, if you do what you love, you never work a day in your life. But I don't think it's ever that simple. I think anything that you're doing for money, that you have to do for money, that you're doing every day, does become some kind of a job does become some kind of a job, even if it's the fact that you know the selling, the marketing, that the tax, um, all that stuff maybe becomes more of the job. I still think I would enjoy the actual task of creating. I just find it like so meditative.
John:It's like almost like meditation for me when I'm, when I'm doing those things you have what your story sometimes sorry, go ahead yeah, I was gonna say sometimes I do get that when I'm actually um, in my, in my job, when I'm prototyping, I do get into that kind of flow state. But it's kind of not often because even even within like the day job, you know there's there's so many distractions you might be getting deep into like designing, working on a prototype, and then you know you have to stop for a meeting or you get a message popping up on team. So it's kind of hard, harder to get into that state at work.
Debbie:I find yeah, that makes sense. We could jokingly blame teams for that, but it's the, it's the human. Um, I was thinking your story reminded me of something. A few years ago I knew an artist who was trying to quit whatever his day job was, and he was trying to strike out more of his own and get a patreon and and do some of his own creative stuff and sell that. And my thought was, oh, how can I best support him? Oh, I need some artwork done. Maybe I can pay him to do this thing that I need. And when I approached him with it, he he got kind of angry at me. He was like I didn't leave that job to take commissions from, from people. And I was like, oh, holy cats, like I thought I was supporting and helping you and, you know, helping you not have the day job.
Debbie:But it turns out I'm just as evil, so it's questions about where do you, where do, where do those lines get drawn?
John:well, I got two. I've since got two commissions and I'm honored. I was so honored to be asked that people would appreciate my work so much that they um a friend of mine commissioned a portrait for his girlfriend for her 40th birthday and they were both delighted with it. I was delighted with it. It was win-win like I got paid um. And then another woman who I met recently, she commissioned a portrait of tom york from radiohead for her graduation present, present for her niece and um, that one's even better because you know it's a commission but I also. That's one I will be able to print and resell. So yeah, no, I'm all for commissions. I don't know. I kind of find it even hard to see why it's getting sold. You can always just turn them down, but yeah no, I'll take any commission, yeah, I was going to say he sure taught me.
John:I've never asked him again yeah, I guess now, like there is, though the only thing is there is, I still would like it to be um, I, I don't know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't like to get into. Like, every single piece of art I do is somebody that like. If it, well, it's not always a portrait of a person, but if it is, it's genuine. Genuine, it's usually somebody that I'm interested in and I'm a fan of. So I wouldn't yeah, I don't know, it wouldn't bother me too much to do portraits of artists that I, or celebrities that I'm not a fan of. I did. One of my favorite pieces actually was I did for my daughter's birthday. I did Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift was one of my favorite pieces. So, yeah, I'm open to that.
Debbie:There you go, everybody open to commissions. There you go, everybody Open to commissions when we think about. One of the things I like to ask on this podcast is to think about the work that you're doing and it could be the UX design work or the art and music work and I like to get people to try to tie it back to their core personal qualities or kind of your, your deep personality traits that make you who you are.
John:How would you say some of your work relates to those deep personal traits um, I think it may be a deep personal trait of mine is that I've always been a bit obsessive about something, like if I get into something I get into it in a big way. But like when I was 12, I I got a rabbit and then within months I had I had a compound with 50 rabbits. I used to sell rabbits to children in the neighborhood. I used to make my own rabbit mix and sell it to the kids who bought rabbits. I had a rabbit club. The same when I got into music, you know it was all in.
John:And then when I did get into design initially and web stuff, like you know, I was obsessed. I read every book, did every course. So, yeah, no matter what I do of, I kind of get into it in a really, really big way. Like I really to it, like, um, yeah, I just yeah. I think it's that kind of obsessive nature. And then and I I do have adhd, I got diagnosed a couple of years ago after my son did, and I, I think that is kind of, you know, a lot of my traits do cross over with that, that kind of obsessiveness and getting into that kind of, uh, deep work and flow state. That is, like you know, quite common with ADHD people. So, yeah, I and I, yeah, I don't exclude that from my personality, it's all part of the same lovely package.
Debbie:So, yeah, yeah, any other kind of core personality traits, like if I said, and this is going to be a tough one, so you know you, you can pass. But if I said what are some of the things about yourself that you love, do you think you could answer that?
John:um, I think. Well, the first thing that pops into my head is that I am passionate about anything that I get into, but not to get into that again. I try to be a good person. I really try to be a good person. I try to do the right thing with other people, whether that's in work or friends, or or even people that you know I interact with day to day in shops or whatever. I learned recently that I don't try to be. I have a problem with the word nice, because I think nice means you'll kind of, you know, you'll bend over, like I can be a bit of a people pleaser and I'm trying to get away from that. So I'm trying to. I try to be a good person without always being a nice person, because I will stand up for myself if I have to. Um, you know, I'll try to get away from the people pleasing.
Debbie:So, yeah, I try to be a good person, I guess yeah I think you're succeeding um I know that some of our listeners are probably trying to go more in the direction you have, where they're balancing a tech job or staying in tech with some of the things they are truly, truly passionate about. Do you have any advice for people trying to go more in that direction?
John:I think, just go for it. I really like. I think people and I definitely did I was thinking for years oh well, you know like I'll try and go back to art college, will I try and do an evening course? And you know that's. Those options are there, but I think they're. It's almost like when it's almost like when you have a big job to do and it's a bit daunting, and the best thing to do is to break it into like smaller tasks and I think that's true for, um, any other kind of creative endeavors or hobbies as well rather than like like saving up for a big course. Just just start doing it like. Like, like, get onto udemy and do it, do it, you can get a course I've done some amazing courses on udemy for for 10 quid, and you know whether it's music, art or UX design there's, there's amazing courses out there and just like buy, buy what you need, buy the.
John:You know I did an oil painting course during lockdown and I just got stuck in and kind of devoted my time to it and I just think, yeah, ditch the tv, put a TV, put a blanket over the TV, Try and get out of that. I think that's the biggest and I know how easy it is to you know, I've had a day's work, you've done dinner, you've had your dinner, you're putting the kids to bed, you're tired. All you want to do is crash on the sofa and watch TV. But I think it's good to habits. I read a really good and really specific book about it's something like good habits for electronic music production. It was very specific, but one of the big, yeah, but one of my biggest. There is a lot of good tips, but one of my biggest and best takeaways from a few minutes of music every day, um, so um, because I find if you, if you don't, if you don't do like, for example, music, uh, one day, then it turns into a week, then it's a month and before you know you haven't done any music in two months, whereas if you do it 15 minutes every day, it keeps the habit up and it um and then more often than not turns into an hour, two hours, three hours.
John:So I actually it's like this is like quite nerdy and stuff, but I do have, like I have like a spreadsheet. Sometimes I print it out with um goals for the day and uh, like it's I. I I know some people go a bit too far with this, but it works for me. So I might have. Like you know, I have a tick box to make sure I've done a minimum amount of steps every day. I've done meditation every day, which doesn't always happen. Um, I've done my 15 minutes of music, 15 minutes of art. I kind of keeps me honest on a lot of things and I kind of keep an eye on and, of course, like a big part of that is then I will look at this now and then and I'll see, oh, I haven't done any art in the whole week, I haven't done meditation, and that kind of keeps me, kind of helps me keep my habit in check.
Debbie:And I'm definitely not perfect and I don't do all this stuff every day, but it is good to just, yeah, habit forming and doing just just the minimum amount a day yeah, yeah, and I like the idea that you might then notice if you have kind of the reverse habit of, okay, I missed a couple of days, but when does missing a couple of days turn into missing a week or longer?
Debbie:And I've been in that space lately as well, because unfortunately, I got COVID a few weeks ago and I did not want to go to karaoke. I did not want to sing, I didn't want to spread COVID at everybody. And then, even when I got home and I started testing negative, I've been coughing a lot. I didn't want to sing, and now I feel like I haven't done music in a few weeks. I feel like, oh gosh, I should have been following John's system and even if I'm coughing every few lines, I should have just been going for it anyway.
John:Yeah, it's just good to remember, though it doesn't matter how long you've stopped something like this for, but the important thing is just get started again as soon as you feel well, as soon as you get your time back, as as soon as you can, because that's that's. That's when things can start slipping away, but when you I don't know when you have it in mind that you want to do these things every day? Um, uh, yeah, the important thing is to just start start again, rather than think you've failed in any way because you haven't done it for two weeks.
Debbie:Yeah, that's a great point. I think a lot of people whether they're staying in tech or thinking about leaving tech or worried that they're not going to find that tech job they feel like I've failed and then they, I think they get closed off to I don't want to take that course, I don't want to read that book, I don't want to try that thing. I'm a failure. Have you found anything with yourself, if you've ever felt that way, that helped you kind of spiral back out of that?
John:um, yeah, not really just in the I. I find, um, like calendar months help. Like, for example, if I've just like lost all my good habits, then I'll go. Okay, first of october I'm gonna start everything again, I'm gonna, I'm gonna print out my chart, I'm gonna, um, keep an eye on all my goals.
John:So, yeah, I, just I, yeah, it's the simplest that I find every month is a good time to kind of reset and um, and maybe even like remove some goals, add some new ones. Like I don't go really hard on myself on this kind of thing. It's just like kind of a gentle reminder. And it's also like a lot of these things are not just for productivity but they're for my mental health. Like I try to run a few days a week and meditate and journal, and these are all on my list as well, and I know if I kind of slip too much on any of these things then my mental health will slip as well. So it's like I have a lot of goals just to kind of keep me you know just well as well as kind of productive. So, yeah, I think, yeah, the calendar start is good for that.
Debbie:Yeah, thanks for that idea. So, let's say, someone wants to get in touch with you or follow you online or commission a work or go to your show. Can you tell us some places where we can find you online and, uh, connect with you in a healthy way?
John:yeah, I'm probably most active on instagram. That is my favorite place for kind of connecting with other creative people, whether it's music or art. So, yeah, I do have a funny handle on Instagram, trontsephore T-R-O-N-T-S-E-P-H-O-R-E, which comes from a star system in an Ian Banks novel, when I was trying to think of the originally was just my username and I was trying to think of a name that wouldn't already have been used, and then I ended up yeah, just just recently I've actually used it as my my recent release. That was my artist name.
John:So I used to just use John Brian for my, for my music, but now I use yeah transfer as my actual artist name.
Debbie:But that's yeah, that's my Instagram handle and will we find the art and the music on the same Instagram account? Yes, um much else and music raving, messing, yeah sounds great, um, and, and of course, I bumped into on LinkedIn, but that might be the best place to connect with you, perhaps as a UX designer.
John:Yes, indeed, I pretty much keep. I have been meaning to, like I say, when I update my Etsy, I am going to post that on LinkedIn as well, but I haven't yet. Yeah, that's mostly kind of strictly UX stuff, although sometimes I post music stuff there as well, because in some ways that is yeah work as well.
Debbie:Okay, great Well then well because in some ways that is yeah, work as well, okay, great. Well then, I hope people yeah, I hope people, uh, listening will find you somewhere and and follow and connect. Um, I like to give the guests the last word. So any other final thoughts or advice, knowing that our, our listeners, are out there floating in the what's next for me universe um, just that it doesn't have to be either, or it doesn't have to be like or art.
John:If you kind of manage your time a little bit better, a little bit less tv, you can do both and set like the, the minimum minimum time for a little bit of um. You know, art and passion, um in the evenings you can definitely easily do both. It doesn't have to be either or.
Debbie:Great. Well, thank you again for being on the podcast.
John:Yeah, thank you. It was fun, great to talk to you, thanks.
Debbie:It's whatever and it's never, is it?
John:better To quit forever.
