Your Life After Tech
After decades of building a tech career, author Debbie Levitt is one of many people with questions, anxieties, and doubts. As a mentor and coach, the employed and unemployed often ask her, “What happened to tech jobs?” and “What will I do next?”
In each episode, we'll meet someone who has left tech, is leaving tech, is adding non-tech work to a tech career, or is reinventing themselves with entrepreneurial adventures. You don't have to leave tech to join our multiverse!
You are the phoenix. It's never too early to plan what you'll do when you're done with tech… or tech is done with you... or you want to add non-tech work to a tech career.
Your Life After Tech is a podcast from the LifeAfterTech.info multiverse. Check out our "Life After Tech" book (with 18 actionable exercises), Discord community, coaching, and more. Use the "Phoenix Flight Plan" to get grounded, plan, rise, and soar.
Your Life After Tech
Ep 001: Travis Ross - From Photoshop to Power Drills
What happens when a seasoned tech professional trades design tools for home renovation tools? Meet Travis Ross from RedDogRenovation.com, our guest for this episode of Your Life After Tech. Travis takes us on a fascinating journey from his roots in 3D product design and academia to a semi-unexpected but gratifying career in home renovation.
We also discussed the traditional concept of work-life balance, advocating instead for more humane and flexible work structures that prioritize well-being and reduce burnout.
Welcome to the your Life After Tech podcast. This is Episode 1. Don't forget to check out our lifeaftertechinfo multiverse, including our book, discord, community coaching and more, because you might be done with tech, tech might be done with you, or you're thinking about adding non-tech work to your tech career. Today's guest is Travis Ross T-R-A-V-I-S-R-O-S-S, and he's from RedDogRenovationcom R-E-D-D-O-G-R-E-N-O-V-A-T-I-O-N. We'll be talking about Travis's many journeys through various design and tech careers, finally ending in 2023 when he moved into being a handyman and doing home renovation. Let's get to know him.
Travis:All right, well, I'm Travis Ross. I live in a little town south of Nashville, tennessee. I moved here three years ago-ish for what seems like maybe the last chapter of my tech career, because it didn't last very long. Before that I lived in Illinois, I worked in academia for a while, also in tech, and for many years before that I worked on and off again in kind of a specialty mixture of 3D and product design, like physical consumer product design and development, some 3d designs and 3d printing, 3d milling, some even art restoration work that I helped a certain company with in Chicago. But yeah, I've spent about 25 years in various stages or various parts of the tech industry, depending on. You know what seemed to be thriving at the time.
Travis:Also, personally, I have a wife. I have three kids. They're all teenagers. They're all very active in different stages of their life. One's in college, one's at junior high school and one's a freshman. So I live on a small piece of property. We have chickens, ducks. We'd like to have more, like to do more with it, but super busy time in my life trying to start this new business. So it makes it hard to be a homesteader and keep your gardens alive when you're busy trying to run a business. So that's, that's a quick introduction. I can go into any of those details that you'd like.
Debbie:No, it's great. Well, I'm sure we'll get into those details through our conversation. I know you because we're somehow connected on LinkedIn, even though we haven't met before, and I remember the day that you posted to LinkedIn basically I'm not sure I'm going to get a job in tech again. And hello, I have a home renovation business outside of Nashville and that absolutely caught my eye. So I'm curious when did you start thinking about shifting to work that wasn't tech?
Travis:You know I that's a really good question because well, okay, it's happened in stages. So the most recent decision to do this was literally the weekend after I was laid off of my previous job, which was last November, so I can't believe it's been almost a year ago. I came home really pissed and I remember sitting down in my living room thinking what in the hell am I going to do now? Because I just I was so sick and tired of this hiring and firing cycle. That happens, that's happened to me, and I thought you know, I'm really handy, I've always been. I repair everything in my house and other people's houses. I've done this before. This isn't the first time I've done handyman or carpentry or woodworking and renovation work. I've done this over the years and that was really so.
Travis:it was last November when the idea just started to kind of sink in. But what's kind of the reality is? I convinced myself it was a bad idea and I started trying to kind of reinvent my career in tech. I really wanted to maybe make a shift into some different area of UX or product design.
Debbie:So I put it off.
Travis:I put it off for a few months actually, even though I was actually doing some. I was doing a project for a friend on his house here locally, on his house here locally. I guess the quote-unquote business side of this. I waited a few months, so that's yeah, that's how I started this.
Debbie:Yeah, it's interesting how it kind of, I guess, kind of crept up on you little by little and then you're like I'm kind of doing this, and then what made you decide to post to LinkedIn? Especially when so many people are telling me privately, like I'm afraid to say anything on LinkedIn about not working in tech or having a non-tech side hustle, I thought that was super gutsy and I loved it.
Travis:Yeah Well, I don't know. I mean I've had a pretty good. I've had a good, nice fun, I don't know what you want to call it. I've had a great rapport on LinkedIn for a lot of years. I feel like it's been a pretty good community of people that I actually know personally. These aren't people that I've just know virtually, but I know a lot of personal. I have a lot of personal relationships that I also stay in touch with through LinkedIn, and so I had um, I'm not sure the timing of that post particularly, but I had bumped into a friend of mine, uh, while I was out having lunch one day by myself and I was texting my wife about this business, this renovation business, and I saw him and he's like, hey, what's going on?
Travis:And he sat down and we talked for a few minutes and I said he was curious because we had worked together at this company that let me go right before that. He wanted to know where I was and I said, well, I think I'm going to quit tech altogether and just start my own business. And he was super stoked. He's, he's really, he was supportive. He's like he knows my, my background in this area and he's handy himself. He works on his own home and stuff, and he was super supportive. He's like, dude, just do it. You know, just forget about it, just forget about tech, just move on and do it, you'll do great.
Travis:And so I felt really pumped, talked to my wife and I said we're just going to do this. I'm going to incorporate a business, I'm actually going to make it an LLC and I'm going to build my own branding which I have done professionally and just really explore and see where it goes. But I just remember vividly thinking kind of my mind switching from I'm giving up on tech industry. It's just, it's such a drag on me I'm going to go ahead and make this shift. It hasn't been easy. There's nothing super, you know. It's not like I'm riding this wave necessarily, and it's still tough. I'm not saying it's going to. It's not going to be easy. It hasn't been, but it's been so much more, I don't know, just uplifting and rewarding for me personally.
Debbie:And I can't help but ask this, though it's a little bit of a silly question which do you feel like came first? You feeling done with tech or you suspecting that tech was done with you?
Travis:that tech was done with you. Yeah, I remember that question on your document and I've thought about that one the most ever since then, because I have felt like tech has been done with me many times in the past and that's why I've shifted from different career types or areas of tech, however you want to call it Like. I started out in the 3D graphics side of technology, 3d scanning and then even a little bit of motion capture, and that was those are the days when I was working in the entertainment industry in California and that industry began to shift, making more of those jobs available internationally and less and less in the united states, and I had to make a decision to leave that and and kind of make a pivot into something more still tech, but, but not a sexy. Um, I was still working in 3d scanning, but, but for a software company, for um company that doesn't even exist anymore.
Travis:But there's been several times in my career where I have felt like, okay, well, the industry is done with me at this stage of my life. I got to find something else, and I wasn't necessarily done with tech yet, I would just find something new, a new way to express my skills.
Travis:And I've always been a kind of an adventurous person when it comes to what I'm willing to do. I haven't always felt like I wanted to be this hyper specialist and just stay in one area my whole career. So I've been adventurous and have moved around a lot and you know that is why, if you're to look at my LinkedIn profile, you would see why was he there and then there and then moved around you know, you look at my resume and people have told me like what do?
Travis:you do, because I have never liked to stick in one area. That's partly because the industry keeps changing. But here at the, at the last, in the last year, I, I would say when I, when I experienced my last layoff, I was done. That's when I became done with it. Uh, I've, I felt like, yeah, I guess it's done with me. And then I was done with it. I'm like all right, this is a divorce, we're done're done.
Debbie:We're breaking up and it's not me, it's you. One thing that I like to ask about, because it's part of my new Life After Tech book, is if you think about the work that you're doing in being a handy person or home renovation work. Being a handy person or a home renovation work, how do you feel that that matches your core personal qualities or?
Travis:your personality traits? Yeah, that's a good question. I so. I'm really a designer and a creator and an artist or I would say an artisan maybe not artists artisan at heart I always have.
Travis:I always have been, and that's how I've always approached everything I did. And that's probably part of the reason why, in the tech industry, I was never the person that was like up for a promotion and I was always feeling behind because I'm slow. I'm going to be honest, like I'm just a slow thinker, planner doer. Sometimes I can move quickly when I need to because I like to do things at a high, high quality, and I always felt like that was impossible in tech, especially when I got into product design and UX. It's like, well, don't we care about quality? No, we just got to ship it, let's just get it out there and see what the customers say. I'm like, well, they're going to say it sucks, and so I guess, at the core, I love being thorough. I love having a the ability to spend my time making sure that what I'm putting out there the customer is going to love and be happy with.
Travis:Well, so in home renovation business and in all the different trades, you know there's so many different things you can do, but one of my favorite aspects is the final, like trim, carpentry or, you know, putting the last final touches on things where it just looks spectacular to them and they're like wowed by what you're doing, even if it's something simple and I know I feel like I'm kind of rambling around your question a little bit, but that is yeah, that is really why this works for me, because I know I'm slow and that's a little bit more acceptable in this, in this industry, especially with the crew that I'm working with right now, because the unique nature of the projects that we're doing and I can we can talk a little bit about what I'm actually building right now.
Travis:But, yeah, it's so much fun to be able to work with your hands and see a physical manifestation or a physical outcome immediately instead of digitally, and you're just waiting, waiting for something to go through, you know, qe or QA or whatever they want to call it. And I even call the owner of the company that I'm subcontracting for right now. I'm like come over here and give you know, give, give this your quality engineering and make sure this looks right to you. Come over here and give this your quality engineering and make sure this looks right to you. And I'm throwing those tech terms in there and they think it's kind of funny because they know my background in tech and they know that I'm still learning some of these things that these guys have been doing for sometimes decades.
Debbie:So in some ways, this is an area that you're familiar with, that you've done before, but you're also a little bit of an apprentice.
Travis:Yeah, I am, and that's actually so. I've been around the trades my whole life. My grandfather had a HVAC and appliance business in a small town in Missouri where I grew up, and I was around that. I was around my various family members always repairing their own everything. Something broke, we fixed it, and so I was just always there working on things. And then as time went on, I guess I I got into uh, I was in college and for a side kind of a side hustle in college I was working doing carpentry for a friend of ours and I learned a lot there as an apprentice and then over the years I've done all my own major home rehabs. I've never hired anyone to do pretty much anything, except maybe electrical Um, because I'm afraid of electricity sometimes and just little by little people have hired me to do small projects here and there, and so I've picked up things over the years.
Travis:Of course, this is another area where YouTube is helpful. There's a lot of books. I mean it's just you kind of learn by doing, not just by watching, but you do, you do it, and then I take all these skills I mean I just over a life of doing all that and just kind of put it all together and you start. You just kind of jump in and you start doing the work that you're being asked to do, but certainly every single time we do a new project but certainly every single time we do a new project there's always something that I haven't done and I'm like how do we do this? I actually have to read the instruction manual.
Travis:Okay, so I learned how to use this new tool, and so the guys that I'm working with right now as a subcontractor for they also grew up with a father who was a cabinet maker and so they're just very like fine-tuned craftsmen at what they're doing and everything is so careful and but they're super gracious, nice, wonderful people to work with. So it is a blast and it is a little bit of mixture of yeah, I have the raw skills and the instinct, but definitely lack some of the other, the other things that I need.
Debbie:But that's okay, I'm willing to do it yeah, and you were mentioning before about, uh, talking about some of the projects you'd be doing. So, yeah, spend a were mentioning before about talking about some of the projects you'd be doing. So, yeah, spend a minute or two telling us about some of the things that now fill your day to day. Because even when we started, I mean, we weren't recording yet. But you're like, gee, I'm not in front of a computer much anymore and I'm sure people listening or watching right now are going to be like what is this alien from another planet saying so?
Travis:you know, what does?
Debbie:what does your day-to-day look more like, and what kinds of work are you doing?
Travis:yeah, I would say, man, being not being in front of a computer as much these days, it's really a, it's a relief. Honestly, like I uh, you asked me earlier about like kind of well I forget how you asked it like at my core or like in my soul, what do I like to do? Well, one of those things is not be seated. I like to be moving around and I like to be in different places. Um, so, when I was at a computer all the time I usually was in the standing desk position because I just like to be moving. So to not be at a computer is, to me, is nice.
Travis:I do come back home in the evenings and sit down and look at my budget. I might be putting together a quote and a software my my budget. I might be putting together a quote and a software. Um, but yeah, I mean, I honestly do sometimes, now that I'm not on a computer all the time, miss sitting at like Photoshop or illustrator or InDesign and just doing some, just something for fun. And I'm and honestly, that's that's a sad part of going into design Um, it to me was I don't have the desire to do this for fun anymore.
Travis:I kind of lost the passion for it. Well, now that I'm not at a computer screen all the time, I kind of want to go back and just do some fun projects. So one of the things I love doing is just comping up in Photoshop, just comping up something Just fun. Just playing around, I'm designing my own branding with another actual, really good designer. She's a great branding designer. Her name is Amber Bauer. Shout out to her. She's been great. She designed my logo, which is on my hat. I can't see that.
Debbie:I can't see that. Is it pressed into leather or something?
Travis:Yeah, this is a leather patch hat. Another friend of mine who has a company. You could see it better if we were in person, but I like very subtle branding with my business. I don't want to be like super loud and bold, and so I liked the idea of my logo being like branded on this leather patch. Um, I have it. You know, business cards, door hangers on my website, of course, actually might take that back.
Travis:My website needs work, so those are the things, those are the places I see, or those are the places I'm spending my time on my computer these days are just working on on my own business but yeah, it's a lot less and and that to me is it's a relief.
Travis:And I don't realize that some weeks I, I at the end of the week, I realized I haven't actually been on my computer all week and I, like this morning I I opened up my, my macbook, and my headphones weren't connected to it and I was like, oh shoot, it's been a while. I guess I got to make sure this thing is still working before we start this recording.
Debbie:Amazing. So many questions running through my head. One of them is work-life balance. You know it's a term we use a lot in the corporate world and the tech world about trying to get your work done, but then wow, nights and weekends are truly yours, now that you've been out of tech for almost a year. How would you define work-life balance? I hate that term so much actually fantastic, because I I think that word was created to make people work harder or something.
Travis:I mean like, well, go work your ass off so that you know you feel like you deserve a break at the end of the day or the weekend. Like I don't think that's healthy, I don't think that's right. I mean, look, I'm getting. Like if I'm in any industry, I'm getting paid for my time. My time is money. And if I let's say I want to work harder, let's say I want to work all you know, 12-hour days, or I want to work, you know, seven days a week, you should get paid for it. Right, like the company should be reimbursing people for their time. And if you decide, you know at the end of the day or at the end of the week or at the end of the month or quarter or whatever you're like I actually do need a break, I'm going to burn out. There should be flexibility there.
Travis:This is kind of getting off into a different territory. I think we have a totally horrible, rigid, uh, corporate structure in in the world. I don't know how it is in other countries, but in the United States I don't feel like I should be enslaved to a company to stay stuck there my whole life. Like I want to have some flexibility in that. I think it would be wonderful if there was a better system in place for what we call quote unquote work life balance. If that was true, I wouldn't feel guilty just because I need a little bit of time off, guilty just because I need a little bit of time off. You know, there's a there's a concept in academia for professors where they they get a sabbatical every seven years, and that's great.
Debbie:We no one else gets that?
Travis:I think maybe doctors get it right, but but in in nowhere else do people get it?
Debbie:I think that.
Travis:I think there needs to be something kind of reinvented in terms of actual work-life balance, because if you're just focused so much on the same thing your whole career, or even just for two or three years, and you're just grinding away at that same thing, yeah, you might get a little bit sharper in that area, but it only lasts so long and then you will something bad will happen, you will burn out, or there will be someone who's younger, sharper, faster and cheaper, who's going to come along and replace you, and I've seen that happen.
Travis:So for so I guess to kind of like um talk about my work-life balance now I would say I'm, I have my evenings and my weekends available, which are great, but nowadays if I feel guilty not working, it's because I'm not working on my business and I'm spending time with my family, and so there's no guilt there for me. I do feel the pressure because I want to grow, want to become very, very because currently I'm not sustainable. Yet my business is not 100 on its own. I'm. I'm being supported by being able to to do subcontracting work for other businesses. I want to be able to build my own. You know, my business, where the marketing is, is being able to bring in customers that I need, if possible.
Travis:I don't want to completely walk away from this construction company that I'm working with, but they know that my goal is to be able to 100% support myself so my work-life balance now is like if I need to take an afternoon off, there's an understanding that, yeah, I just do it. So yeah, I mean I kind of went on that rant about work-life balance and tech.
Travis:That's because I spent so many years there thinking about it, thinking like it would be amazing if I could, if there was some system in place where I could just step away for, even like it's not a vacation, it's like a month, I'm going to do something different, just to kind of reset my brain. Yeah.
Debbie:I like that.
Travis:I don't think that exists.
Debbie:Yeah, I've heard some tech people who are like I heard if you work five years at eBay, you get a one-month sabbatical, like. I've heard that a little bit from some of those bigger tech companies companies, but I don't think it's super common and I don't think it's available to everybody.
Travis:Plus, you'd have to stay x years at a tech company, which they certainly don't make easy no, they don't, and I'm sure there's reasons why companies you know financially decided, or whoever it it, it doesn't work I don't i't know, I'm not in those conversations. I've never been in those conversations. I've had a lot of talks with people that I knew like wouldn't it be great if we could just switch jobs for a week and I could do what you're doing and you could do what I'm doing? I mean, that would only make us stronger in those teams.
Debbie:Right you know yeah. I wanted to ask you you in thinking about your kind of progression out of tech and into your own, uh, business, which, of course, is still growing. Um, are there any mistakes you feel like you made, or regrets that you wish you could do over?
Travis:in terms of this new venture, the, the new renovation business you mean yeah, like if I say that.
Debbie:Does that trigger anything about like, oh, I should have started earlier. Or, oops, I didn't get insurance when I needed it. Or, oops, I did this thing, you know? Is there anything that you think of that you, especially for the people listening who might be planning some of their own next adventures in life, you know what? What are some things you wish? Uh, past, you knew.
Travis:Yeah, I wish. I know this is going to sound a little just corny. I just wish I would have believed in my abilities to do this sooner, like I knew I could have, and it was always a desire, um, but I was just thinking I could stick it out in tech also, because I could. I can make a really good salary in tech industry and I kept telling myself, ah, I'll, I'll make more money in tech, I'll just keep sticking this out is the best I can you know. But that just became not true, and so I think that the biggest oops or mistake or I wish I could, you know, have a mulligan redo that thing. But just last November, when I just kind of put my foot down and said I'm going to make this transition, I wish I would have just done that, um, but you can't go backwards, you can only go forwards, sure.
Travis:And um, I do sometimes worry about that. I beat myself up like dang it, why didn't I just do it? Well, I only lost a couple months. It's not a big. It's not a big deal, and I guess I just needed a time to, to just sort of reset my thinking, you know.
Travis:I mean it is a hard thing getting let go being laid off. I've been through Debbie I can't actually remember how many now I've been through multiple layoffs and out of all of them, none of them have felt like my fault sure, it was always rarely your fault I was always like, but at the at the end, you always blame yourself. You're always like what?
Debbie:did I do wrong right, why me you?
Travis:know and the last company I worked for. They had a certain thing that you can look this up. It it's on Reddit, called emotional firing. It's documented and they really do make you feel like it's your fault Up until like the very end. And then they apologize. They're like I'm sorry, this didn't work out. Well, why are you apologizing to me now? Like you just moved my whole family here, you paid for my training, you got me onboarded to me now Like you just moved my whole family here.
Travis:Yeah, you paid for my training. You got me onboarded. Why are you apologizing? Isn't this just business? You know so I would say.
Debbie:But it's not just business if they're trying to make you feel like it's your fault, like we've definitely crossed a line there If there's gaslighting or manipulation or toxic crap where someone wants you to feel like, oh, we have to let go of you. But you kind of did this to yourself, which of course is nearly never the case.
Travis:Yeah, I'm not perfect. I I know that I handled, probably mishandled at least one situation, but like I'm human, just like the guy across the table from me who's letting me, you know, filling out my paperwork to fire me I'm like why couldn't we have found a way to come to remedy this situation?
Debbie:And.
Travis:I think about not just that company but previous companies where it was just so awkward and it didn't have to be. But again, I always say this I'm not in their shoes. I don't want to be in their shoes. I just would not want to be in that position to have to do that. I did have to lay some folks off one time, not because I wanted to, but because I was actually forced to. It was terrible.
Debbie:Yeah.
Travis:It was terrible. My boss came to me and said you're letting these seven people go today Like I walk in the door. He said you're letting these seven people go today Like I walk in the door. He said you're doing this right now and I said no, I'm not, you're doing it. He's like if you don't do it, I'm firing you. And I should have turned around and walked away. But I had a family to take care of and so I had to take these people one by one, who I knew personally, who I hand, chose out of the industry, hired them, put them in a conference room and say I'm sorry, I have to let you go today, Like they hated me. You know these people told me they're like we're going to make sure you never have a job in this industry ever again. This was back in entertainment.
Debbie:I was working, but didn't they understand that it wasn't your fault or doing?
Travis:Yeah, but they were like on, you know they were. I was on the opposite side of the table now, so I was like the enemy and I didn't want to be in that spot, but it was like I didn't have a choice. So I I have tasted that a little bit what it's like for these you know, these upper management people that have to do this and it sucks.
Debbie:But I'm so sorry about that because I feel like that's such a complicated story because, even if you had, you're like, oh, I should have just walked out and given them the middle finger. Even if you had done that and sacrificed your own job, they still would have walked in and fired those seven or laid off those seven people, like you didn't. It's not like a movie plot action era where you're going to sacrifice yourself and save others. They all would have still been gone.
Travis:Right, and then I would have been gone too. So the weird silver lining in that situation if you can even call it that the same guy that my boss who told me he was going to fire me if I didn't fire those other people he came to me some time later. It was probably a few months. I didn't fire those other people. He came to me some time later it was probably a few months, I don't remember the time frame. He said look, please don't tell anybody this.
Travis:Like he literally came up beside me in the hallway as I was walking down the hall, he grabbed my arm and whispered. He said you're going to be let go in a couple months. If you don't, so I recommend you find another job. I was like what, what do you mean? He's like yeah, and he walked away. So like that day I got on the phone and just so, that's kind of. When I left the entertainment industry, I left the company I was working for and moved kind of into a different direction again. Yeah, so these just layoffs. I personally have never seen it done well.
Debbie:Right, what does a good?
Travis:layoff look like. I don't think I've heard of much worse situations.
Debbie:But it's also not a contest. Everyone who's gone through it has gone through their own personal hell and it's almost like uh degrees of badness, like even if you saw it coming and knew it was gonna happen and tried to prepare yourself, it still hurts it does and actually, now that I've been through this, I I've seriously, I'm getting ahead of myself.
Travis:Now that I've been through this so many times, I believe that I know the signs now like I should have. I should have written all this stuff down earlier, but I really think that I could write a booklet or something I could write a. I'm not saying I want to be a writer necessarily, but like I think I could explain to people what to look for do you mind telling us a little bit about that.
Travis:What to do? Yeah, I think one of the main ones is that your, uh, your direct leader, completely pulls away from an emotional connection with you right because they're thinking what's the point of?
Debbie:what's the point of connecting with you because you're going to be gone anyway, or they might be dealing with their own sense of whatever, because they don't want to get closer to you and then have to let you go.
Travis:Yeah, I think you begin to get fewer and fewer assignments. However that happens assignments however, that's how that happens, whether you are working independently and you you assign work to yourself, or if someone is actually giving work to you, I think there's you'll start to feel a sense of like less and less of a need to be there and you'll pick up on it like people if you really pay attention to it. I've seen that. I've seen that numerous times. And then you know and these are all very subjective, by the way, I'm not saying that these are going to happen exactly the same way every time but you also kind of get a sense of there's like secret meetings going on. You're like, well, why isn't I invited to that? Right, what's happening in this project? Like why is that being now given to someone else?
Travis:Like I mean, it was really really awkward in my last job when I'm not going to name the book, it was a specific book that came out that the entire company just was forced to read. That came out that the entire company just was forced to read and it basically, when I saw this happening, I was like this is actually replacing my discipline in this company. I can tell, and it kind of just swept through the whole company like wildfire and I thought well, if you all are doing this work for yourselves and these teams, why do you need me?
Debbie:And that's what they were thinking.
Travis:I said that out loud. I said this out loud a few times, like I'm trying to have this conversation with my own leader to say what is happening right now and no answers. I wasn't getting anything straightforward. I think that's another. Another sign is just there'll be a lot of vagueness, it'll just be. You know, figure it out for yourself.
Travis:So so, at the end of every week, we had to fill out a report how our week went, whether it was good, bad, what was high, what was low I started filling mine out in riddles just just to be sneaky, or just to be fun, or just to have a little bit of creativity with it, and my leader would come by my desk and look at me and he would say are you OK, like?
Debbie:well, you didn't like the report.
Travis:Just trying to get a little bit of some you know communication going. I think you'll also notice like in a company that's preparing for layoffs, there's already layoffs happening, and if you think there are people quitting the company and you hear terms like they were on the wrong seat on the bus, no, they're getting fired, especially if it's people you know who are super dedicated and really good at their jobs.
Debbie:Right.
Travis:And therefore probably a little higher paid.
Travis:Oh yeah, there's always kind of this target range of people who are really kind of mid-career higher. They demand a little bit higher salary. Also I believe this may just be my opinion if you're an opinionated person and you're good at what you do, there's some people that just don't want to hear you talk and they just want you gone. I think I've lived that. I'm not saying everything I ever have said in every situation is perfect. I know I've made a lot of mistakes, but I definitely have a strong opinion in certain things that I was good at doing.
Travis:Yeah, so those are some of the signs that I've experienced. I'm sure there's others. That's just based on my experience. I could ramble about those on my experience. Yeah, I could ramble about those for a while.
Debbie:Yeah, no, we're already past a half hour, so I'm going to roll us back to kind of a closing. I know time flies. It's been a great conversation. I want you to please tell everybody how to get in touch with you. You know, are you active on social media? What if someone wants to hire you? I guess you haven't written your book about how to spot a layoff yet, so we can't plug that.
Travis:But how can people get in touch with you or follow you in some way or contact you if they need some work done? Yeah Well, I'm willing to travel for work, but I do live in. Nashville, so it's easiest if it's right here locally, but the best way to reach me I mean, I do still check LinkedIn. You can find me there. My personal email address is Travis at Red Dog Renovation.
Debbie:Last words. Go for it. You can have the last word. Any last words Go for it.
Travis:You can have the last word. Oh, I would say to anyone who is thinking about this making a jump out of tech, or any industry for that matter, and into something you really want to do, that's not tech. It's totally okay to do it. Don't convince yourself. It's not Because you're not a lesser person if you do something. That's not tech.
Travis:There's a lot of people out there who are doing something that's not technical, and that doesn't mean because you went to college for it or you've spent. I mean, look, I have a master's degree because I wanted to really dig in deep and spend my you know, spend my career doing something very design heavy in tech. It didn't work out, and so that's doesn't make me a lesser person because I just decided not to stick in that area, just because, just because you spend years studying something, you can find a way to apply that to a different industry, I promise.
Travis:So if that's what's, holding people back there are ways to to make that shift and I think a lot of times people try to convince themselves. I know I did I was like, ah, this isn't gonna work. I I'm gonna. Just it's not gonna work for me to make this jump, but you know it's the wrong time. It's never the right time it's whatever and it's never. Is it better To quit forever?
